Chinese Lives

43 responses so far ↓

• 1 Rick in China // Jun 11, 2008 at 12:10 am

  I think it’s disgusting that you, anyone, singles out people for how they react in a situation. Sure - someone who freaks out in an emergency may not be someone you want to rely on in the future when an emergency may happen, but during a natural disaster, you - or any of the millions of bloggers here posting *BS* about this person who has been singled out as if he’s unique in his actions, don’t know how you’d react.

  You’re right when you say you don’t know whether you are in a position to criticize him - you’re not.

  The fact he’s given this kind of name and spread across the internet - horrible.

  FYI: I didn’t freak out, in Chengdu, and forced my employees to evacuate slowly and not merge into the flooded stairwell of a trampling disaster in our 33 floor building, but I refuse to make myself believe everyone “should” react in such a fashion in an emergency. It’s simply not realistic.

• 2 Hotpoter // Jun 13, 2008 at 10:35 am

  I agree Rick. Perhaps Fan didn’t perform his duty as a teacher when the earthquake struck, but his only human. He reminds me of the translator in Saving Private Ryan; might be a coward but he’s only human.

• 3 Jia Jia // Jun 14, 2008 at 12:51 am

  Hi, Rick, I am a Chinese people who are working in an international company, I guess I can explain why Fan is singled out. maybe there are people freak out, run and leave behind their familiy/students in the disaster, but these people will say sorry to his family/students. Instead, Fan didn’t and won’t feel shame on his coward behavior, instead, he is filled with elation. THIS ELATION is why people criticize him, and as far as I know, this behavior is deemed as coward and shameless in any country and civilization

• 4 admin // Jun 15, 2008 at 7:01 am

  Rick, i did not single out him on his running away, but it was his own remark that brought furious attention. Runner Fan wrote a blog about it is not a teacher’s duty to save students or help students in time of an emergency, and he said he would not stay behind to help his mother either if there is another earthquake. He made his points clear in a later Tv show.
  A few people including myself , either internet posters, or tv show audience , expressed their care and sympathy towards Fan as a disaster victim, and supported Fan’s choice of being human.
  But his remarks is very improper, and too cold-hearted in a Chinese culture environment and shortly after such a disaster.

• 5 Rick in China // Jun 15, 2008 at 11:00 pm

  @Jia Jia:
  Should he feel ashamed for running away during a national disaster? I don’t think he should. He’s obviously not courageous, but who are you, or who am I, to demand that of him, or of anyone else. Who are we to try to place our demands upon anyone else? “his elation” - well - I don’t know if that’s a fair judgement, can one of you post me a link to see his excited face as he gloriously proclaimed his “Yes, yes, I got away, HA” happiness as you seem to imply?

  @Admin:
  I suppose I read your story as a criticism of him as a person as opposed to a criticism of specific words or actions he had taken that were made public (by him, not by a 3rd party or other bloggers), it was written as a criticism of “he does this, and this” as opposed to specifically quoting things he had said in full context. So in that, I should retract some of my statement.

  Some teachers may take full responsibility for all of their students in the way a mother bear takes care of her cubs, however, that is not their job, nor is it in their job requirements. I don’t see teachers as guardians - and you shouldn’t either - some are made of metal and others sponge, but it’s not our place to make that judgement. If an armed student runs into the classroom in a US university and starts shooting, do you think the teachers jump infront of their students - on average? Yeah, yeah, of course the..*coughs* hell no.

  Metal and sponge, who are we to judge.

  There’s a difference between “I’m proud of the fact I saved myself in a disaster and others should too” and “I don’t give a sh*t about anyone but myself and you can all go die”.

• 6 Justin // Jun 15, 2008 at 11:21 pm

  @ Clueless Rick: you’ve missed the point. Fan running was not the issue, it’s the fact that he justifies it with numerous articles and his only point of defense was assuming that his critics would’ve done the same. He is assuming hypocrisy when he himself is the hypocrite. Add to the fact that he’s a teacher, he’s supposed to be a public image. Running alone without caring for others is not a decent thing to do, coming out afterwards and justifying it makes it worse.

  Do you even understand “Chinese Patient” as the admin eloquently ended his article with? Or are you just some liberal foreigner ?

  Please don’t try to act like a champion again, because you’re not. You’re just clueless. What Fan has done is give students, children, and young people across the nation weak morals in that you should only save yourself and care for your own life. It is human nature to do so, and I don’t think people would crucify him had he kept his mouth shut about it. If everyone only cared for himself, then you’d see the disasters like in Mecca. People running in panic and trampling each other to death. So Clueless Rick, if you’ve really been living in China, you would see that the biggest problem of society is morals, and people like Fan only make it worse. Most people are selfish, and if they see someone lying on the street injured or in need of help, they don’t care. If everyone was a Fan, this country would be thrown back to the Qing Dynasty where they get their asses kicked easily by foreign invaders.

• 7 Justin // Jun 15, 2008 at 11:24 pm

  By the way, nice touch with the school shooting example you ignoramus. I’m sure a shaking building and a direct threat from a crazy gunman/perpetrator are the same situation.

  I’m sure you will understand Rick, if your little boy or little girl dies from being crushed in a school because his/her teacher set the world sprinting record from escaping when the quake started. I’m sure you would just say to him “it’s okay, i would’ve done the same”.

• 8 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 12:29 am

  To Jia Jia,

  Hi Jia Jia. I am Steven also workin china right now. few simple questions to you.

  1). do you think Fan ran away is right or not?
  2). if yes, how coma he cant post it?
  3). if not, why just only Fan need to make an appologize? as i know many peoples like him just ran away even they are teachs also.

  Would you respond it?

  Thanks

  Steven White

• 9 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 12:32 am

  The question to Jia Jia also the same to Justin.
  Thanks

• 10 Justin // Jun 16, 2008 at 1:05 am

  Steven,

  1.) nothing wrong with him running away. It’s like seeing an elderly person falling on the street, and walking away pretending nothing happened. It’s not wrong, it’s not illegal, but it’s not something you’d brag about. Same thing when in a disaster situation like an earthquake or a fire, and afterwards you say that “I treasure my life, i would only consider rescuing my daughter, i wouldn’t care about anyone not even my mother”. Stupid thing to say, even worse when he thinks he’s totally right.

  2.) Nobody said he can’t post it, but he sure as hell will receive criticism. The biggest controversy here is that he is a teacher, who’s public image is a very important factor. Since you’re in China you should have heard of the Twins and Edison’s scandal. Many people said it’s their private lives and they shouldn’t be judged, but they are an influence to young people so they will be criticized and frozen out. Fan’s act of cowardice is understandable but it’s unacceptable that he justifies it because it gives people the wrong impression that cowardice is a good thing and everyone should do it. The part where he says he wouldn’t even rescue his own mother was even worse, actually it sounds like he is stirring up controversy for his own fame because his career in China is awful and he is waiting for a move abroad. Maybe he thinks by acting like an idealist, he would gain the attention of some foreign universities.

  3.) Actually an apology is pointless now, because he has already shown how morally twisted he is. There will be no solution unless he just shuts up and waits for the whole thing to die away. I can’t see him coming out to admit that he’s wrong in saying those things, and it wouldn’t do any good either.

  And finally, imagine if it was a US teacher or politician who was in this kind of situation, and then afterwards came out on national TV and said “I did the right thing, i admit i value my life higher than anything else and i would’ve done it again. I wouldn’t care about anyone else other than my daughter, not even my own mother or father”. Yes, it’s true that many people do think like that and some of us will sit on our sofas and point fingers at them, when some of us might do the same thing. But it’s just stupid to say that, absolutely pointless. He is reveling in his 15 minutes of fame, it’s easy to spot that. So that’s why I think anyone who ‘understands’ him or supports him for being “honest” is an idiot.

• 11 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 4:26 am

  To Justin,

  Hi Justin, thanks for your reply so quickly. Ok, let’s discuss about it

  1). Can i understand like it, you agree Mr. Fan run away?

  2). You also agree Mr. Fan post his article online

  3). But you dont agree with his point.

  May i understand what you think is like that?

  Please dont make the point to complicated, i am not trying to discuss about what really high theory or really great things. i just try to discuss human being. ok?

  As your replied,
  1). you skiped the answer talk about his post
  2). also skiped it and present an unmatchable suppose
  3). even didnt face to the question

  Thanks

• 12 Justin // Jun 16, 2008 at 6:28 am

  Steven, the reason i wrote it longer is to explain that there IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG IN THIS SITUATION. It is a question of morals. I am not discussing theories it’s just that people completely miss the point and they think it is an issue of “to run or not to run”. The reason i brought up the example of someone falling down on the street and nobody helps him is because, it isn’t wrong to walk away. Fan specifically states “I did nothing wrong” and to me, that is desperation. You asked me if I agree with Fan running, but if I say yes/no that is MY opinion. So I simly explained to you that there is no right or wrong. Quite simply, he is not wrong, but he isn’t right either.

  I didn’t agree that he posted his articles and did the TV interviews. Nobody should be stupid enough to justify cowardice….. unless he has a hidden motive. And that is to bring controversy onto himself. There are also many people who sympathize with him, completely blind to the fact that he is using his media spotlight to try and elevate his career hopefully overseas.

  Your last question, I have already addressed many times. The controversy is NOT him running, because many people have done/would do the same thing. It is coming out and justifying it. As i have said to Clueless Rick, if your (steven) daughter was killed in a school fire and the teacher apologized to you, but explained that he only cared for himself and would only save his own daughter, and that he wouldn’t even save his own mother, would you feel better? Would you say “i understand, i applaud you for your appreciation of your own life”. Running and saving yourself is understandable but it isn’t a right or wrong issue, it’s more of an embarassing thing to do and nobody in their sane mind would talk about it publicly like a clown and not expect to get blasted.

• 13 Justin // Jun 16, 2008 at 6:34 am

  By the way, Fan got his teaching license revoked by the gov’t because of his big mouth, not his cowardice. There is nothing wrong with being a cowardice but it is obvious that he is a very selfish person, and he is not fit to teach imo. He was fired twice before, once in less than 10 days, because of his twisted and sometimes extreme ideals. He was considered a bad influence throughout his career, way back before this incident.

• 14 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 8:17 am

  Dear Justin,

  ok, it seems you made the discussing really complicated now. never mind. So your point to this discussing is NO RIGHT and NO WRONG to this incident. So why we discuss about it? ?

  Let me present my opinion:

  1). Mr. Fan ran away is definitely right!!! in that situation nobody can against disaster!! except God. save life is the most important at that time, and no care about what kinds of life younger or elder, stronger or weaker. NO!!! the only one thing need to be care is the number of life. So he save his life is definitely right. If he got the power save more life, he should do that but as you see it he is just a coward. how can you expect a coward more? As my experience in a car accident, what i can say is in disaster and face disaster human is weak!!!! Save life is the most important and obviously you are the easy way is safe yourself first, because when the earthquake happen, you just get few seconds.

  2). Blog is like a diary. the only different is your diary cant be read by strangers, but blog can. But it doesnt mean people dont have the right to post their blogs. Mr. Fan post his blogs only is a really personal thing. But the article be focused and broadcast is by media and network, but not himself. I dont think he expect such a result when he wrote this article.

  3). even his point in the article is not right, but he is still a human, still have that right to present his opinion, just like what i did and what you did online right now.

  4). answer to your example. first, the example you suppose is not a disaster situation, so match these example is unfair. When human in conscious they can control their brain. they can think. so they can make decision. But when disaster happen, and human without any experience before to face such a disaster, most of people will just stuck there like me. (i got a car accident before so i know what is that feeling) So you use such case to match the earthquake, that is unfair. But after earthquake will be different. after earthquake people got in conscious and can control themself, that will be other case.

• 15 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 8:22 am

  5). to the question you asked to me and Rick. I am a human, my son is a human also, and my son’s teacher is a human also. In such earthquake situation i cant and dont have the right to ask my son’s teacher to give up his/her life for him!!! face to life, face to earthquake all life are the same. no one is more important than others.

• 16 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 8:47 am

  To Justin

  From the case you told us that Mr. Fan’s teaching license was revoked, that obviously telling us China government knows nothing about human right. But it seem you do really support it.

  Ok any way that is a business of chinese

• 17 Brian // Jun 16, 2008 at 11:25 am

  Good to see people arguing again. It must mean that things are getting back to normal.

  I think it’s reasonable to to expect that a teacher will stay with his or or class in times of emergency. When I was a kid, the teacher was always with us in the classroom during tornado warnings. My dad’s a high school teacher and he and another teacher jumped on a kid once who was about to start a school shooting in his lunchroom. The kid pulled a gun and they ran at him, not away. After the SF earthquake, my brother who’s in a wheel chair was trapped in his classroom at SFSU. Everybody immediately ran out of the room but remembered that my brother was in there so a group of them came back with the professor and carried him down three flights of stairs.

  Call me old fashioned but you put me in charge of group of people and I feel responsible for them no matter what. Especially if they’re kids. I think I expect that from teachers.

• 18 Brian // Jun 16, 2008 at 11:34 am

  @ Rick - I suppose that today’s kids in the US pack a lot more fire power than they did back in my dad’s day which is why you don’t hear about too many teachers foiling school shootings any more…

• 19 Steven White // Jun 16, 2008 at 12:00 pm

  To Brain,

  This is from you “Everybody immediately ran out of the room but remembered that my brother was in there so a group of them came back with the professor and carried him down three flights of stairs.”

  So have thought, why they run out immediately at the beginning? and why they came back later?

  Do you know what is natural reaction?

  Thanks

• 20 Brian // Jun 16, 2008 at 1:58 pm

  @ Steven - I don’t think anyone intended to leave him. It was just initial confusion and assumption that someone else would respond. As soon as they assessed that my brother hadn’t gotten out and then realized there was no body officially “in charge” of him, they realized they needed to get him out of there.

  A disaster plan that included the awareness that some individuals would need extra help would have probably prevented his being abandoned.

  So I guess that Runner Fan could also be judged by how well he followed the school’s earthquake plan.

• 21 Justin // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:34 pm

  I’m sorry Steven but i can tell by your language that you are not American. Maybe you come from a small peaceful European country with plenty of human rights? Because you can’t expect to be able to write anything on the internet and not be responsible for it. You sound like those 12yo who cries “free speech!” when their teachers or the authorities delete their articles and/or punish them. By your logic, does that i mean i can write a blog that supports Bin Laden and the 911 terrorist attacks, and expect not to be criticized? I am a nobody, so people probably won’t care. But if i was a school teacher in the US, you can bet your ass i’ll be fired. Yeah, i can just cry about human rights and i’m sure the public will support me…. not!

  Fan’s license was revoked not because of one incident, but because he was evaluated and deemed not fit to teach. If you can read chinese and you read some articles about him you will find out that he is a bit of an extremist.

  Oh and one last thing, steven, since you INSIST on “right and wrong”. Since you say that Fan running away is “definitely right”… if I, for the sake of discussion, did NOT run but stayed behind and saved as many students as i can, and ended up getting killed. Am I WRONG?

• 22 admin // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:37 pm

  @Steven White,
  Sources say that Fan did not own a teacher’s qualification since he supposedly thought the qualification was useless restrictions on capable individual, which matched his unusual behaviour after the quake.
  Somehow It is true netizens’ pressure forced him out of his job.

• 23 admin // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:43 pm

  @Steven
  Fan also spoke out his comments on a very populated forum, Tianya, where i first knew this story.
  And he made it on a tv show as well.

• 24 Jason P // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:53 pm

  Steven is not a foreigner, he is asian. From his reply to Justin it is obvious that he doesn’t fully understand English because just has already answered him.

  Hmm, it could be the running man himself

• 25 Rick in China // Jun 17, 2008 at 12:06 am

  @Justin
  Your arguments hold much more weight if you add additional personal insults, as you’ve shown. Clearly I’m unable to remove the soapbox so I’ll avoid your rants.

  @Brian
  I don’t think that the kids necessarily packing more firepower is the only reason - I believe that the teachers of today may be significantly different… I mean, they’re much more liberal and restricted in their positions, it takes a different kind of person to accept that job, there’s not so many hard-nosed hard-assed teachers as (from what I can tell in my father’s stories, also) what our parents may have experienced half a century ago. Teachers now have to be lenient and softer, in the west, to avoid being punished by the law

  I believe that in the position of authority that it is the “right thing” (yes, there is morality here, Justin) to take care of those you are put in charge of, just as Brian says. However, it is not my right as a parent, to *expect* it from another human being. People are selfish creatures. I can’t expect anyone else to be selfless, however, I don’t have to admire or even acknowledge those who aren’t. That’s the limit of what I believe my rights are. Not to sit and point fingers (like some above) saying “what a bad person, shame, shame” at the selfish and cowardly person in question, instead, to shake my head, realize that the average person may be like that - and understand that of course it is his right to defend his actions for his own self-preservation.

  Just because I CHOOSE not to behave in such a manner, does NOT give me the right to expect others to.

• 26 Steven White // Jun 17, 2008 at 4:20 am

  To Justin,

  if you really do that, you will be a hero and i will respect you as my idel. But be honest, i am just a normal human. May i choose to be a normal human but not a hero?

  I believe this is what Mr. Fan wants to present.

  By the way, since this website just welcomes americans only, i will not come back any more. Good luck China

• 27 Brian // Jun 17, 2008 at 11:26 am

  @Rick- Yep, those guys were hard asses! You hit that on the nose. Your nuances on the subject are pretty apt. Sounds like a 300 level PHIL class. If this business thing doesn’t work out you may have another career in higher ed.

  @Steven -The name of the blog is Chinese Lives. I read the blog because I like learning more about China from Chinese or others that live there like Rick. Please keep posting.

• 28 Justin // Jun 17, 2008 at 10:59 pm

  So Steven “White”… since you insist on making this a right or wrong issue ,and you say Fan was “absolutely right” in running. And I say that I would not run but stay behind and help others. Please tell me, AM I WRONG?

  Nothing to do with “heroes”. The heroes are the ones who run back inside to help others, like firefighters or rescue workers. Honestly, this isn’t even a big issue, nobody cares if some teacher runs. So Fan must be really enjoying all this attention because this thing has been going on for almost a month.

  The funny thing is that Fan, since he lost his job, is doing nothing but sitting at home and going online to read what people have to say about him. So he could very well be reading this… or even posting here.

• 29 Rick in China // Jun 18, 2008 at 1:17 am

  @Justin
  RE: Right/Wrong
  He was right to run. You would be right to stay. It’s a moral decision each individual has to make and there is no OBJECTIVE correct decision which anyone can identify, therefor, they are both _right_ in the moral sense.

  Why do you DEMAND Steven answers you in an absolute? Not very enlightened, eh. I find it amusing you’re quoting steven’s boardname as if to indicate his real last name is not White or that he has some sort of egg-fever and isn’t actually American as if it has some implication in this discussion, therefor his questions to you (which you oft neglected to answer directly, nice dancing) have less meaning. Please refer to me as Rick “in China”, because actually… in is not my middle, and China is not my last name. Just thought I’d clarify that.

  @Steven
  As Brian mentions, and regardless of what someone else may say, this is a public board, and you should freely post what you feel and not be offended by trolls or mules.

• 30 Justin // Jun 18, 2008 at 4:23 am

  Rick, that’s what i’ve been saying all along. Yet Steven insists it to be a right or wrong matter. Even if he didn’t specify ‘wrong’, he has implied it when he insisted that Fan was right.

  I could refer to you as Rick “in China” because I am starting to doubt if you are really in China, or have been in China for a long enough time to understand Chinese philosophy and society. If you were, then you would see that Fan’s actions are unacceptable and he would be spat on if he went out in public and recited the things he wrote in his blog/forum. The reason I labeled you clueless is because you don’t seem to have any idea of the incident, maybe you don’t understand Chinese? If you read the articles when the incident first got published, you would see that the entire controversy is not that he ran, but that he seemed proud of it. I am not going to repeat all that i’ve posted already, so in the most simple example he is a coward. And if a coward comes out and says that he treasures his own life more than others, and he’s proud to have done what he did, then he will be ridiculed. That’s human nature. If he has the right to express himself, then others have the right to denounce him. And the fact that he’s a teacher brings even more public scrutiny towards him.

• 31 Rick in China // Jun 18, 2008 at 4:59 am

  @ Justin “And if a coward comes out and says that he treasures his own life more than others, and he’s proud to have done what he did, then he will be ridiculed.”

  想问你，你觉得如果他是个”coward”的话， 然后有人说他怎么样，他需要不好意思 - 这样子? 如果他错了他也不需要说什么？我觉得如果我看到人打什么然后问他”为什么你打吗?”如果他没说什么我要打他。。。。如果他说为什么，好的， 就是他的为什么， 他可以随便说，但是不要看他是小”屁娃娃”没说什么。

  I don’t write very well - I’m not a student - my company resides in China and I’ve lived here 5 years. Hopefully you can grasp my point. Thanks for all of your speculation and assumptions, it really brings great respect and admiration to your opinions — much like this completely sarcastic remark must bring to mine.

  去死。

  I treasure my own life more than yours.

  Ridicule me.

• 32 Justin // Jun 18, 2008 at 5:32 am

  Huh? I didn’t understand that garbled mess at all. I think you are a little confused here.

  This is your first post:

  “but during a natural disaster, you - or any of the millions of bloggers here posting *BS* about this person who has been singled out as if he’s unique in his actions, don’t know how you’d react.
  ——–
  FYI: I didn’t freak out, in Chengdu, and forced my employees to evacuate slowly and not merge into the flooded stairwell of a trampling disaster in our 33 floor building, but I refuse to make myself believe everyone “should” react in such a fashion in an emergency. It’s simply not realistic.”

  You’re the one who has started with the speculation and assumption. I simply showed how ridiculous Fan has made himself look, with perhaps an intent to make a name for himself. If that were true, imagine how foolish you would look, trying to ‘understand’ and ’sympathise’ with him.

• 33 Rick in China // Jun 18, 2008 at 11:05 pm

  @Justin
  “you are not American.”@steven
  “Maybe you come from a small peaceful European country with plenty of human rights”@steven
  “have been in China for a long enough time to understand Chinese philosophy and society”@rick
  “maybe you don’t understand Chinese? If you read the articles when the incident first got published”@rick

  Might I ask whether my Chinese writing was so grammatically flawed that you couldn’t interpret it, or whether you can’t read Chinese? Where do you live? Where are you from? I don’t want to make assumptions (cough) but I get the feeling your soapbox has no base.

• 34 admin // Jun 20, 2008 at 4:44 am

  hello, ya all, tell me: if being coward is part of humaness which we understand, but are we allowed to justify it?
  For instance, if we all try best to cherish our own lives, who will help us when we are in danger, such as robbery, or road accident, falling down a bridge or a mountain?

• 35 Brian // Jun 20, 2008 at 11:59 am

  This thread really is a philosophy class which brings back painful memories. Yes, Socrates, Aristotle, Cicero and Aquinas all believed in a natural law that was inherent and immutable. This natural law encouraged humans to to good and forsake bad. Aristotle speaks directly to cowardice and justice in Nicomachean Ethics. He makes a distinction who between soldiers who simply run away out of fear who are just wicked, and those who try to gain from their cowardice which also makes them and the act unjust.

  So as everyone is pointing out, cowardice is one thing but profiting from it its something else, right? Aristotle agreed with you.

  But the age of enlightenment ushered in the decline of the acceptance of natural law. The 20th century saw the birth of objectivism that holds that certain acts are right or wrong separate from human opinion. But perhaps the most important “popular” philosophy of the 20th Century was Ayn Rand’s Objectivism or rational selfishism.

  This “philosophy” simply holds that utter selfishness is only real moral option for any individual and that all of society benefits if everybody is truly selfish. People are rewarded for being virtuous with profit. Anti-social acts are punished by ostracism or others punishing the perpetrator out of their own self-interest.

  Many people believe objectivism is the underlying philosophy of capitalism. I don’t.

  For example, if someone chooses to murder and and can dispose of bodies without a trace it’s still immoral, whether he is punished by society or not. In a practical sense, a company that is still profitable even though it pollutes dangerous carcinogens, is still criminal, even it’s not punished in a free market.

  Steve Martin said that he learned just enough philosophy to f**k him up for the rest of his life. That I can believe. Although I don’t believe in constant universal order that decides right or wrong but I also don’t believe that morality is irrelevant. I especially don’t believe in selfishism.

  I believe in fishin’.

• 36 Brian // Jun 20, 2008 at 12:08 pm

  Let me add another angle to the story. I work with a lot of Tsinghua and Peking University graduates. I can now tell without looking at their resumes who graduated from these schools because they are the most demanding, most selfish and most dishonest Chinese students I work with. That Running Man comes from PU is no shock to me.

  What is it about graduates from Chinese elite universities that makes them think that rules don’t apply to them? Let’s open that can of worms.

• 37 Curtis Plumb // Jun 20, 2008 at 10:23 pm

  “Selfishism” is not an English word.

• 38 Brian // Jun 21, 2008 at 7:57 pm

  Thanks for pointing that out Curtis,

  I don’t know who coined it, dude, but I know I didn’t. I thought it came from Ayn Rand’s “The Virtue of Selfishness,” but I’m not about to read it to find out. It’s generally used to describe her brand of objectivism.

• 39 Rick in China // Jun 22, 2008 at 10:36 pm

  @Curtis Plumb RE: “is not an English word”
  Re’er Re’er, grammar police on patrol. Colloquialism is. Your insightful contributions to the discussion are appreciated.

  @Brian RE: “utter selfishness is only real moral option for any individual and that all of society benefits if everybody is truly selfish.”
  Good recap on philosphy, but incomplete. Rand played a very important role in opening our minds to something, however, since then the theory of utter selfishism as a benefit for society as a whole has been expanded, take for example, John Forbes Nash’s work on economic game theory and ideal outcomes, summed up in “The best results come when everyone in the group does what’s good for themselves AND THE GROUP”.

  In any case, What you’re mixing and why you disagree (I think) is economic/society benefits and moral/ethical decisions. How do we draw the line between what is best for society vs. what is morally right? Example question to bring the question more clarity:
  Society is plagued with many negative factors. There may be no benefit to, say, homeless people. While it’s beneficial to ‘dispose’ of homeless people, in society’s view, is it moral?

  I think the answer is quite universally going to be no, it’s not moral, and yes, it is beneficial, but clearly as seen by pretty much any culture you want to microscope - homeless aren’t exterminated. Imo, Rand’s theory is less regarding morality and more socio-anthropic-ish. (is that a word, Curtis?)

  @Brian RE: “What is it about graduates from Chinese elite universities that makes them think that rules don’t apply to them?”
  It’s not just the students from Beijing elite universities. Keep in mind the society as a whole has very different age gaps, as recognized by everyone who has been here a while, or everyone who lives here that I’ve met. They often distinguish between people born before or after 1980, for example. The younger ones are spoiled princesses, the apple of every parent, grandparent, auntie and aunts eye. One child policy puts a huge amount of pressure on children to succeed, or fail their whole family’s expectation. This whole relationship creates a Princess syndrome where kids often think they’re the center of the universe.

  Elite universities may house the richer of the princesses, so you’re looking at what would really be spread across most in the age range except…with a lot more money, therefor, a lot more attitude.

• 40 Brian // Jun 24, 2008 at 11:51 am

  You’re right, Rick there’s a lot more to it but I was just trying to contrast the notions of an natural virtue or morality vs. the efficacy of selfishness (selfishism, dammit!) which I thought Admin was getting at. I can’t reconcile that there is an immutable force that establishes morality but at the same time, if something’s wrong, I know it’s wrong. By the way, can I use socio-anthropic-ish? I like that. I got a new word from a philosophy prof here at school. Have you heard of phallogocentrocism? You can get it’s meaning by its roots. It’s a post-modern pejorative that’s used to any philosophy or social science that is too objective or analytical. Apparently it’s essential to any post-modern discussion. I’ve been trying to drop that word for a while now so I guess that makes this a post-modern discussion.
  Choke on that one Curtis. Pun intended.

  No, I agree about generation Y in China and here too. I was shocked by a Chinese freshman who told me he spent the previous summer at an exchange program at Choate and taken school trips to Paris and St.Petersburg. According to him, “everybody” in China travels like that now and every school takes school trips to Europe and the US. This was apparently a public school.

  I think it’s great that he had those opportunities but I don’t think that’s average for most Chinese public school students.

  But my beef with the top schools is with people in their 30’s and 40’s. American prof’s like to hire Tsinghua or Peking MD’s to do basic life science here. Think about it. You can get an MD for the price of a postdoc. And in turn these academics get a chance to file a green card in the US but they can’t practice medicine and they’re always junior investigators on the research.

  But despite being junior researchers they tend to boss everyone around like faculty. Don’t get me wrong, I have Chinese researchers from a lot of other schools who tend to be decent people. But I’ve noticed that when I catch someone lying to me or harassing me for help, it’s usually from an elite school.

  It’s probably my own issue. Thanks for indulging me.

• 41 Rick in China // Jun 25, 2008 at 1:21 am

  @ Brian
  I’ve heard phallogocentricism somewhere, (Curtis should at least correct the spelling from centrO to centrI). Your post caused me to google and read though, and I like it too.

  I post from my office, and have to say, “Choke on that” made me laugh HARD. (no pun intended either).

  RE: Word usage - permission granted
  RE: “I think it’s great that he had those opportunities but I don’t think that’s average for most Chinese public school students. ”
  That’s an utter, outright, ridiculous joke. I hire from top universities, and 99% of them do NOT have passports. We make it a requirement now since the good ones go to the states to pick up their skills.

  RE: “But I’ve noticed that when I catch someone lying to me or harassing me for help”
  I wouldn’t say that it is limited to elite schools, it’s part of the culture here. If anyone is given any sniff of power or respect they grab it up, since, through most of their lives, they’ve been on the bottom end of that stick. Imagine a cabin boy being made first-mate for a day, whenever the captain’s not about, they’re bound to kick down every other cabin boy in the same way the previous first-mate did to them. It’s horrible, but it’s bred into the culture here, and it’s disgusting. Not everyone mind you, there are a lot of amazing people I encounter, it’s likely just the bad ones and the bad events that stick out in my memory (unfortunate how negative memories stick, maybe it’s bred into my lumberjack Canadian horse-police culture).

• 42 Rick in China // Jun 29, 2008 at 11:47 pm

  @Admin:

  Should post something about the Weng’an issue. That should generate some topical conversation.

• 43 admin // Jul 6, 2008 at 8:25 am

  Rick, I thought about whether i should post on Weng’an issue for a while. I was not that keen on politics before the DL issue. but still i will do as you asked.

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